2008-05-20-ELLS Daniel Ellsberg Interview Transcription
Page 57 of 58 20 May 2008
Ambassador to China, and he was, I think he spoke Chinese, as I recall -- he was an Orientalist. So, I
hadn't seen his wife very much but she -- we had a long conversation with her, and she was very right
wing, very, at that point, very Republican, very hawkish on the war, much more than Winston. And so,
she was pushing at me, and pushing at me, on this and that. Finally, at one point, I'd said to her, "You
know, these people don't have any concern" -- I was talking Democrats or Republicans -- I said, "They
don't have any concern on Vietnamese deaths. It's not a consideration." You know, she said
something. She was very skeptical on that point, and I said, "We never collected statistics on it. Ted
Kennedy, in the Senate, did what he could to get statistics. They were never confirmed by the
Defense." I said, "Here's a situation, after all, where we collect statistics on rubber tires that are needed
for the B-52s, and on how many bicycles may come down the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and how many of
this and that, everything, but nothing on Vietnamese deaths." And she said -- and I said, "Look, to give
you an example of that," I said, "I proposed a study when I was working on the Options Paper," which
I told her about in front of Winston -- that -- -- I proposed a study of Vietnamese casualties, that we
do a serious study of what the bombing was causing in the way of Vietnamese casualties. I said, "There
had never been such a study." I knew that, and I proposed that they do one, and Kissinger had rejected
it.
There was just no interest in knowing, because it might leak out, and there was no concern. It was not
possibly a concern. So, suddenly, this quite conservative woman -- very brilliant woman, very
intellectual woman, brilliant -- who had been pressing me up until this time, suddenly her whole
demeanor changed, and she said, "Is this true, Winston?" Winston said, "Yeah, that's true." And so, she
looked very disturbed, and she left. She didn't say any more, and she left. She left the room, and she
went upstairs. So, I thought back to that, and I thought that got to her, apparently. To me, it was self-
evident and commonplace, that there was no interest in this, but apparently that was a touchy point,
perhaps. So, and I thought, so, I thought I'll ask him about Vietnamese casualties, and -- Kissinger. Just
to be sure that he didn't have a ready answer, I went to a pay phone and I called Winston Lord, in a
break in the conference. I don't think I went into all these details, but since it's the Nixon Library, it's
of interest, and, of course, I'm giving away -- but at this point, I'm sure Winston wouldn't mind this, I
don't think, at this point. So, I call Winston, and I said, "Winston, do you remember the proposal I
made for another NSSM, National Security Study Memorandum -- not one, but you know, I suggested
about seven or eight draft proposals that I wrote out, none of which were accepted. I said, "Remember
that I proposed the study of Vietnamese casualties, and you remember that discussion we had with
your wife?" He said, "Sure, sure." I said, "Have they, ever since, done such a study?" He said, "No, not
to my knowledge." I said, "Okay, good, that's what I wanted to know." So, the time comes for me to
ask a question of Kissinger. So, I said, "Dr. Kissinger, you said earlier that" -- what was it -- -- I forget,
I had a lead-in, which is in my book, but I don't remember the exact words. Let me put aside the
preamble, which I forget at this moment, to my question. But the point of the preamble was that you
are giving a message about values. He didn't want to discuss morals and values and what not. That was,
you know, subjective, and was for other people to discuss and worry about. I said, "But the truth is you
are giving a message about values by what is said by the White House, and what is not said." I said,
"So, I have this question for you. What, in your best -- what is your best estimate, of the number of
Vietnamese civilians who would be killed if your strategy's carried out in the next 12 months?" He'd
been very, very self-assured up until this point, and had answered everything in a very smooth way,
which impressed me, and I thought, "I can see why this guy is so persuasive to people. He handles
everything very well." And, for the first time, he stopped. He stopped on that question, and he actually
looked around, and he thought for a moment, and he says, because I'd said Vietnamese civilians. He
says, "You're accusing us of racism." I said, "No, no, I'm not. That's not the issue here." I said, "Just,
let's just say, what is the estimate of casualties of all kinds over there, including civilians, that you